Clarisse Thorn

October 24, 2009

Questions I Want to Ask Entitled Cis Het Men, Part 3: Space for Men

Filed under: Uncategorized — Tags: — Clarisse @ 2:12 pm

Click here for the previous installment, “Questions I Want to Ask Entitled Cis Het Men, Part 2: Men’s Rights”.


I’m about to assert something that makes me nervous, because I worry that people are going to stick me in the “asshole MRA” box. Don’t get me wrong: I certainly don’t think that women have it better, overall, than men do. But I do wonder whether it might be good for feminists to acknowledge that — although we don’t experience nearly as much privilege as men — there are a lot of advantages women experience that men don’t.

Because women aren’t seen as threatening, we have an easier time doing confrontational things like approaching strangers on the street. Because women aren’t seen as fighters, we stand a lower chance of being mugged than men do. Because women are seen as emotional, we’re given a huge amount of social space to consider and discuss our feelings. I can work with and be affectionate with children far more easily than a man could. I can be explicit and overt about my sexuality without being viewed as a creep.

And there are at least a few recurring complaints about how trying to be masculine can suck. First and foremost: that men don’t feel they’ve been taught to process their emotions, or don’t feel allowed to display them. Another: that they’re perceived as less manly if they don’t achieve success through a career, especially if they aren’t the main breadwinner for their family. A third: that men are expected to be sexually insatiable, or always to be sexually available.

Of course, it’s worth noting that the advantages women experience are almost always the flip side of unfortunate stereotypes. For instance, one might say that women get more social space for emotion because we’re stereotyped as irrational and hysterical. But that doesn’t change the fact that most of us easily grasp that space, while most men don’t. And if we can reject the Oppression Olympics for just one minute and stop thinking about who’s got it worse, it becomes clear that the advantages and drawbacks associated with being both male and female are intertwined. The two systems reinforce, and cannot function without, each other. The gender binary may not hurt everyone equally, but it hurts everyone. As those beautiful “Every Girl / Every Boy” posters say, the most obvious example is: “For every girl who is tired of acting weak when she is strong, there is a boy tired of appearing strong when he feels vulnerable.”

I do suspect that it may not be psychologically realistic to ask people from our underdog-loving culture to embrace an image of themselves as privileged; my thoughts turn again to the trans man who hated the thought of being a white male. But if we feminists can’t work productively from a stance that acknowledges our social advantages, how can we expect straight/dominant/big-dicked men to do it?

Could feminist acknowledgment of the women’s gender-based advantages help pave the way for more men to acknowledge male privilege? Could feminist acknowledgment of the advantages on both sides of the gender binary help us better grasp what sucks about being a guy?

Am I citing Thomas Millar too much here? Well, at least once, he frustrated me. Amongst the comments on one blog post, I thought he was stating his views about stereotypical guys rather harshly. I suggested that it might be better to seek common ground, or at least to explain things gently; he said he wasn’t interested — “I think we all work with some people where they are and can’t soft-sell our views enough to deal with others.” He added, “If I’m going to alienate someone for saying what I think too bluntly, I’ll pick entitled cis het dudes.”

I won’t pretend I didn’t laugh when I read that — but I worried about it, too. I’ve had an enormous number of experiences trying to discuss feminism/sex/gender with men in which the men tensed, bristled, and closed me out. I don’t think it was always because those guys couldn’t stand the thought of losing their privilege, either. I think a lot of dudes have been led to feel that they have no place in gender discussions — that those discussions will always be about what men are doing wrong, and that no one’s prepared to work with them where they are.

All groups have outsiders. Movements inevitably form themselves around oppositional forces. As someone who’s spent her share of time feeling feminist rage, I’d say that being filled with feminist rage is totally understandable. And seriously, don’t get me wrong: I’m not giving unfeminist guys a free pass. I’m not happy about the fact that so many men are apparently alienated from feminism because us radicals are too confrontational — or too uncomfortably correct — for their fragile masculine egos to handle. (I’m being sarcastic! Mostly.) I’m really not happy about the fact that I’ve got to think about marketing anti-oppression — in a just universe, wouldn’t anti-oppression market itself?

But at the same time, I’m a realist. I know this isn’t a just universe, and I want to use tactics that’ll achieve my goals. Which are: I’d really like to find more men at my side in the sex and gender wars. I’d really like to talk to more guys who don’t see ideas stamped with feminism as an attack — rather, as an opportunity for alliance. Plus, if we’re going to think in terms of cold hard tactics, it’s worth noting that normative men hold most of the power in America. (That’s part of what we’re complaining about, right?) So swelling our ranks with The Oppressive Class means we can ruthlessly use their power for good.

Can we do better at making feminist discourses around gender and sexuality open to normative men, without driving ourselves crazy? How can we make our movement open to, and accepting of, normative men? Put another way, how do we convince normative men to support us?

Maybe we don’t need a lot of normative men in the camp of sex and gender radicals; maybe we’ll be happier without silly Gender Studies 101 questions clotting our discussions. Still, even if we don’t try to “recruit” them, I’d love to see more widespread analysis of masculinity and masculine sexuality amongst normative dudes … if only because getting a sense for their societal boxes might simply make them happier. If only because I think they’ve got their own liberation to strive for.

So at the very least, I’d like to contribute to an America where serious examination of masculinity and male sexuality can flourish.

That’s my final question. How do I do it?

15 Comments »

  1. That’s my final question. How do I do it?

    I wish I knew…

    Comment by Doug S. — October 27, 2009 @ 3:07 am

  2. [...] feminist, Clarisse, tries to address the issue of the lack of male involvement in the feminist movement: I’m about to assert something that makes me nervous, because I worry that people are going to [...]

    Pingback by Answers I Want to Give to Entilted Feminists « Toy Soldiers — October 28, 2009 @ 11:08 am

  3. “That’s my final question. How do I do it?”

    Short answer: I seriously hope you NEVER FUCKING LEARN THAT.

    Long answer: masculinity is already examined, deconstructed, questioned and problematized more than enough. It is DYING from vivisection wounds. What you call “masculinity” is just a nucleized form of it, a survival spore that formed during four decades of immersion in feminist vitriol; a naked, dry trunk that has deliberately shed all branches of diversity, being unable to support them in ultra-hostile environment. This very phenomenon you describe, this desperate clinging to a handful of reductionist, atomic concepts that constitute today’s masculine identity – it is not the natural state of masculinity, it is the fucking DAMAGE YOU FEMINISTS HAVE INFLICTED.

    Comment by BASTA! — October 28, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

  4. If you wish to bring more men into feminism, it’s a really great strategy to label them “The Oppressive Class.”

    That ought to work like a charm!

    Comment by aych — October 28, 2009 @ 8:39 pm

  5. I find the tone of your post sensitive and empathetic to men, which is rare from my experience with feminists. You have already pointed out many problems, I’ll add one.

    Perhaps men just don’t agree with many of the radical feminism’s presumptions, like men are the oppressive class. Besides the obvious disagreement on intellectual level, men don’t like to be oppressive because oppressive to women means they fail as a real man, a real man protects women, not oppress them. Manliness is also a form of virtue for men and if they fail they’re morally bankrupted in addition to being less of a man.

    Comment by ubernerd — October 29, 2009 @ 5:01 am

  6. By the way– every so often, one comes-across the occasional radical feminist who says openly that men HAVE NO PLACE in feminism.

    Sure, maybe you find this objectionable, but you wouldn’t dispute that these individuals are feminists.

    The range of acceptable opinions within feminism, then, goes right-up to the level of outright discrimination, and it’s completely tolerated.

    That fact stands-out more clearly than any pretty words you could ever say, don’t you think Clarisse?

    Comment by aych — October 29, 2009 @ 3:13 pm

  7. [...] post was originally published on Clarisse Thorne's blog, and is reprinted here with Clarisse's kind permission. All three installments may be viewed [...]

    Pingback by Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Questions I Want to Ask Entitled Cis Het Men, Part 3: Space for Men — October 30, 2009 @ 1:06 am

  8. @ubernerd: I suppose it’s true that men who disagree that men have it better than women are never going to ally themselves. Those aren’t really men that I think it’s ever going to be easy to communicate about these issues with, though … at least I don’t think so. I’m more interested in how to reach men who agree that men are generally in a more powerful position, and who are interested in describing, but have trouble expressing that agreement because they feel blocked from the discussion by feminists or because they’re afraid of suffering social consequences.

    General note: Most of the interesting comments have been happening in other posts about this ones, or the crossposts at Alas, A Blog. I’ll try to post a followup when I can.

    Comment by Clarisse — October 30, 2009 @ 9:30 am

  9. [...] and in any discussion of any length, a hostile response is near certain. The first sentence of Clarisse’s third post in this series indicates that she is aware herself of the likely response: I’m about to assert something that [...]

    Pingback by Response to Clarisse Part 2 (NoH) | Feminist Critics — October 31, 2009 @ 10:49 am

  10. [...] “entitled” by feminists. Quite simple, and possibly quite wrong. It turns out that perhaps Clarisse doesn’t want to talk to men like me at all: I suppose it’s true that men who disagree that men have it better than women are never going to [...]

    Pingback by Response to Clarisse Part 3 – A question For Her (NoH) | Feminist Critics — November 1, 2009 @ 5:50 pm

  11. Clarisse, I don’t know exactly how. But I’m straight, white, cis, dominant and male, and I really want to start engaging in this discourse- I hate the idea that masculinity is damaged by questioning it. If you come up with anything new, let me know. These have been excellent posts.

    Comment by Magpie_seven — November 2, 2009 @ 4:17 am

  12. I agree that women have a lot of advantages that men don’t. I lived in Montreal (Canada) where it would not be shocking to anyone there if we described most spheres of the montreal society as matriarchal. Family, flirt, education (teaching and learning), fashion, health, shopping are several things are dictated by women to some extent.

    One thing I would like to address however is that, nowadays, women’s hardship is often (I wouldn’t say often, but I can definitely say ‘in a large proportion’) caused by women. I don’t know if that aspect of feminism was covered in this blog previously but it is definitely one reason why feminism is not interesting to me, as a man.

    Comment by Vice — November 5, 2009 @ 11:24 am

  13. Ha, I think your post answers itself. As a liberal man who doesn’t self-identify as feminist, I would definitely participate in threads on this blog, because as ubernerd pointed out, your tone is very welcoming. So I’m going to be real with you, here, and reveal more about myself than I usually do on random blogs.

    I talk about gender issues with women I know. Friends, relations, girlfriends; anyone I’m already on good terms with. And yes, sometimes with other guys, too, though I admit this is rarer. The main reason I don’t participate in most gender threads on the Internet? The anonymity. Anonymous discussions can quickly turn testy, and when they do, I’m not prepared to respond in kind. (And de-anonymitizing myself by giving out personal information on the Internet that could lead to my identification is not an option; trust me, I’ve been there before.) I don’t want to feel like that guy who’s venting the frustrations of any possible failings on my part to a crowd of women. I’ve probably pissed off both the feminists and the MRA’s here, who’d see that as patronizing and deferential to women, respectively, but there you have it. That’s the most honest answer I can give you.

    At the same time, of course, I’m pretty competitive by nature, so if I enter an argument, it’s to win it. So if it’s going to turn out that I’m going to bring up something in my life that’s negatively affected me as a man, and some women strongly contradict this, and I’m not about to come back with a stronger-worded rebuttal, then I’m not going to bring it up in the first place. Chances are, it’s one of those minor annoyances in life that I can deal with on my own.

    I can’t speak for all of us “liberal but non-feminist-identifying men” that seem to be your target audience here, but for myself what would help is a light-hearted environment that best simulates a non-anonymous setting. Think of it like a cheesy sitcom that’s light and fluffy, but at the episode’s end, lessons are learned by all, complete with a moody soundtrack number and a voiceover by Zach Braff. A more intense, lugubrious affair is something I’d rather avoid.

    If your question is how to get guys like me to not only participate in gender discussions, but also start identifying as feminists… can’t really help you much there. I generally have problems with most single-issue liberal groups, be they of the feminist, socialist, environmentalist, racial empowerment, or what have you – some of my fellow Asian American political activists have me mistaken as a conservative for this reason – and I doubt I can come around to call myself a feminist unless feminism changes to accommodate my misgivings about it, which I doubt y’all are willing to do. So it looks like we’ll just have to co-exist, and draw on our points of agreement where they exist, and there are plenty, without a wholesale joining hands in a circle.

    Comment by sylphhead — November 7, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

  14. [...] to Clarisse whose comment on Alas prompted me to crystalise into a post some thoughts I’ve actually had [...]

    Pingback by Creating a More Attractive Space for Feminists (NoH) | Feminist Critics — November 8, 2009 @ 8:54 am

  15. @Magpie_seven: Followup coming once I manage to synthesize all the feedback I’ve gotten (which is considerable!). But I also have a big report to write for work. So maybe a couple weeks.

    @sylphhead: a light-hearted environment that best simulates a non-anonymous setting

    This is definitely going to figure in my followup. One thing to note about my perspective is that a lot of my activism has focused on running events. So, for example, when I created Sex+++ the sex-positive documentary film series, I think it did a really good job of creating such a light-hearted environment as you describe. And I’ve concluded — partly based on the Sex+++ experience but also partly based on the feedback I’ve gotten for these posts — that the most effective tactic for engaging men in these discourses is going to be creating events like that, which aren’t too overtly “serious” and don’t advertise themselves as anti-oppression fora or whatever (even if they secretly are).

    Comment by Clarisse — November 8, 2009 @ 4:03 pm


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